Forums General Chitchat Potential for "The Beetles" to be executed?
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  • #1431
    Springer
    11 Posts

    I don’t really understand why the Government has felt it necessary to indicate that it would not object to these vile creatures being extradited to the USA for trial, where they could face execution if convicted if we have already stripped them of their British citizenship?

    Having watched the videos of the immediate run-up to the murders of innocent hostages they committed and bragged about, I really don’t give a care about them getting their comeuppance in the USA.

  • #1432
    JGC
    16 Posts

    But what about their human rights ;o

  • #1433
    Gary
    6 Posts

    It’s probably not worth arguing the point but … because what they did, going way beyond what is now considered civilized behavior, will in no way be reduced by our own f*cking government taking the same path, i.e. abandoning a long cherished rule which we can be rightly proud of for the sake of gaining (or avoiding) headlines.

    I would like to see them both dead, in the nastiest way possible; but I prefer the rule of law and boundaries to state power, and if that means them rotting the remainder of their pathetic lives in prison then so be it. Who knows, that might be even more of an effective deterrent than martyrdom.

    • #1434
      tomtom
      6 Posts

      ….and if that means them rotting the remainder of their pathetic lives in prison then so be it. Who knows, that might be even more of an effective deterrent than martyrdom.

      I agree with the principle Gary…..but the trouble is they won’t rot in prison…..they’ll be leaders to the major number of radicalization set ups within British prisons. They will be nothing but trouble, cost millions over their lifetime and I just don’t want to pay for it!

    • #1463
      Bob
      5 Posts

      The cost of the death penalty in the US typically exceeds that of life imprisonment.

      https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

      There is also the cost of Guantanamo

      https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-security/detention/wasted-opportunities-cost-detention-operations-guantanamo-bay

      Plus there is the social and political cost of the US having one of the most unfair, regressive and barbaric systems for those accused of murder and other crimes subject to the death penalty, in the western world.

      You also don’t need to be alive to inspire others with your evil creed … these bastards will act as martyrs against the UK and US government if executed.

      All the evidence is that death penalties simply do not work in any respect other than revenge (and are often unfair in that in retrospect) so I think people who bay for the blood of such bastards are sadly unthinking and heading down the same path as those evil men.

  • #1435
    Dave b
    6 Posts

    I was wondering that as well. If I’d been Home Secretary my first reaction would be to shrug my shoulders and say “nothing to do with me anymore”. If they did go to the US and ended up with life sentences they may well end up wishing they were dead anyway. This article is a long read but a shocking one: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/magazine/inside-americas-toughest-federal-prison.html

    If we still have some obligations towards them then, unfortunately, we shouldn’t participate in any process that may result in their execution. Not for their sake but because it’s a dangerous precedent to set.

    • #1436
      Emma
      3 Posts

      Exactly, we should be avoiding slides towards authoritarianism. There’s always people who want to bring back the death penalty and allow the state excuses to use violence against its citizens. These people will use cases like this to advance their agenda.

    • #1437
      neb
      6 Posts

      If we still have some obligations towards them then we shouldn’t participate in any process that may result in their execution. Not for their sake but because it’s a dangerous precedent to set.

      I agree with that 100%

      They have committed unspeakable acts. So it’s critical that we don’t. Not just because it isn’t 1598 anymore, but also, as someone has mentioned previously, they will become martyrs…and that’s precisely what that they want.

    • #1438
      Springer
      11 Posts

      but also, as someone has mentioned previously, they will become martyrs…and that’s precicely what that they want.

      I’m not so certain that is what they want anymore in the cold light of day, otherwise why didn’t they die fighting? Why did they allow themselves to be captured?

      I could be wrong, because I don’t know the details of their actual capture

    • #1443
      Raff
      9 Posts

      I was wondering that as well. If I’d been Home Secretary my first reaction would be to shrug my shoulders and say “nothing to do with me anymore”. If they did go to the US and ended up with life sentences they may well end up wishing they were dead anyway. This article is a long read but a shocking one: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/magazine/inside-americas-toughest-federal-prison.html

      TBH I think that’s exactly what the Home Secretary has done. They are apparently no longer British Citizens, (not sure how that works in practice), so effectively nothing to with us. He’s just indicated we’re not fussed what the US and Syria decide to do.

      If we still have some obligations towards them then, unfortunately, we shouldn’t participate in any process that may result in their execution. Not for their sake but because it’s a dangerous precedent to set.

      On an intellectual level I probably agree with you, but despite a lot of calibration and a few slaps my give-a-f**k-o-meter needle isn’t moving even slightly.

    • #1444
      robbie
      5 Posts

      That’s what I thought until I read this in the Guardian:

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/23/is-the-uk-governments-stance-on-the-death-penalty-shifting

      The issue is that the UK cops have a ton of evidence against them and the US has formally asked for ‘Mutual Legal Assistance’ to get access to it. Normally the UK would not hand over evidence to help a prosecution unless the requesting state made a no-death penalty guarantee but Sajid Javid has decided not to ask for one.

      So this is an intentional step away from previous policy and quite possibly against EU human rights law. I think they may be using this as a stalking horse: waiting for the left and courts to jump in because they know that it will put them on the wrong side of public opinion and present an opportunity for the Daily Mail et al to score points about EU courts, human rights laws and capital punishment for jihadis.

    • #1465
      freddo
      1 Posts

      Heard a US lawayer basically say that they could enter plea bargaining in the States which avoids a death sentence and they would probably just get 15 years. Apparently it is what most people do when faced with the choice.

      Also the USA does not strip its citizen of their citizenship, unlike the UK.

      IMHO Javid has done the right thing. I can think of better things that the UK Home Office can spend its time/limited resources sorting out- like Windrush, EU citizens etc rather than these 2.

    • #1466
      robbie
      5 Posts

      Why would the prosecutor offer someone that cuts people’s heads off with a knife on You-Tube a plea bargain? That would be a career-limiting decision when the public are crying out for blood. The Feds just need to put the trial in a state with plenty of gun toting, hang-em-high, republicans and its game over.

    • #1467
      JGC
      16 Posts

      According to the Spectator today, 400 people have come back to the UK from Syria that the intelligence services are aware of, of which 40 have gone to prison. The rest have too little evidence to prosecute so have been let free back into our society without enough manpower to even monitor. Most of those are probably no threat, although you have to wonder the motive to want to visit Syria over the last few years. Currently it is not an offence to visit Syria in the UK (unlike other countries).

  • #1439
    Norman
    6 Posts

    Hey Man do you think your reactionary nonsense will help? If we want to take the moral high ground then their atrocities must be met with measured justice, regardless of what they did or what the cost of full life sentences will amount to.

    • #1440
      Springer
      11 Posts

      Why don’t you answer my question?

    • #1441
      Norman
      6 Posts

      Aren’t they still on British soil? If so we would be sending them to a country that uses punishments that we don’t . Even if they aren’t British this would be unacceptable so good old Sajid is letting them know that we won’t cause a stink. Would you answer me a question? Why were you watching execution videos?

    • #1442
      Springer
      11 Posts

      I thought they are in Turkish Kurdistan? The British Government has washed their hands of them, or so I thought, until I read that they wouldn’t object to their going to the USA for trial.

      If they are actually in the UK, then yes, that puts a different light on it.

      The video was on the BBC News. They didn’t show the actual executions, but the events immediately preceding them. That was sickening enough.

  • #1462
    winters
    2 Posts

    If we’re going to support their execution as a nation we should do it ourselves. Far better to have not revoked their citizenship, extradited them to the UK, tried them and if found guilty hung them from Tower Bridge for a month or so.

    As much as I’d like to see them feed the crows, I do agree with the suggestion that this is going to start to normalize the death penalty in the UK, and I don’t think that is in our best interests.

    It would have been a lot easier morally/ethically if they’d stepped on a landmine or accidentally been left in a room with some hungry dogs or something.

    But this is the point – if we don’t believe in the death penalty we have to not support it on the worst criminals. Then again if we cared about morals and ethics that much we also wouldn’t provide evidence for people getting life in Florence ADX – personally I’d rather take death I think.

  • #1464
    Irk
    10 Posts

    I don’t really understand why the Government has felt it necessary to indicate that it would not object to these vile creatures being extradited to the USA for trial, where they could face execution if convicted if we have already stripped them of their British citizenship?

    Having watched the videos of the immediate run-up to the murders of innocent hostages they committed and bragged about, I really don’t give a care about them getting their comeuppance in the USA.

    This is why, because you’re angry, you’re willing to bend the rules this one time so you provide them with a perfect opportunity.

    It’s a trap for Labour and ultimately a play for the reinstatement of the death penalty in the UK. They know public opinion is finely balanced on the issue when discussed dispassionately, they know ‘the Beatles’ (if that’s who these two are, they haven’t been tried or convicted, indeed it appears the CPS aren’t even sure they can be) won’t be considered dispassionately by the public. Which leaves Labour at best neutered, forced by public anger and tory manipulation into shameful silence or worse for them wide open to being portrayed as siding with murderous terrorists (ignoring the lack of conviction, we seem to have given up on these little niceties). Perfect time for a snap election.

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